[suggestion] IDDC reform: 3 steps

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tangar
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[suggestion] IDDC reform: 3 steps

Postby tangar » Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:33 pm

Main problems of current IDDC mode:
- IDDC is heavely based at shopping. Example: famous IDDC player 'Pondos' just said he is after to buy +speed boots for his character for a _month_.
- Cheezing. The most simple one - create new char, go -1000, sell everything and give ~25k gold (+items, some of which could cost 50k+) to your main char & repeat.

Suggestions:

1) you could order anything in any IDDC shop, any item (except arts) and it would be 100% normal price for your order. Sales and discounts removed entirely.

// it would make shopping fast and enjoyable. All you need - to count your gold to be able to buy right items. All classes would be able to buy what do they need.

Implementation: 'Order' function already there, but now its forbidden to 'o' a lot of items; also not possible to do it from '7'.

2) fair trade, you can't transfer money or items without anything in return. If you would just drop item/gold on the floor - another character can't pick it up (except food and oil?). To trade/transfer item you have to put it at 'player store' in the dungeon-town; another player able to buy it at 100% sell-to-NPC price.

- several 'player store' (small 3x3 storage houses) would appear in every 'dungeon towns' and sometimes such lvl could be found in dungeon itself (like mushroom stores or hidden library)
- player could 'buy' store for 1 gold. Actually its a rent - cause at next lvl reset 'player stores' wouldn't be saved.

Example: 'player A' wants to sell 'Dark sword' to 'player B'. 'Player A' buys 'player store' for 1 gold and put there 'Dark sword' with @S. 'Player B' now could buy this store from the store. 'Player A' receive his gold, everyone is happy and fair.

// It would leave possibility to exchange items between players, BUT make it legit via gold, prevent any kind of cheezing.

Another fun thing: it would also give a nice possibility to exchange items between characters at the same account (although you have to be careful - to do it fast, before town theme regenerate).

Implementation: 'player stores' already there, but it would be quite hard to customize it for IDDC.

3) Stealing restrictions. Its forbidden to sell stolen goods at via 'player store'

// I even think stealing could be restricted a bit more to prevent long-term steal-cheeze. Rogues has to have some benefit from stealing, but not as much as they got now. Maybe even restrict stealing only to shop #5? Rogues have 'stealth mode', its already pretty powerful advantage to other classes in IDDC...

Implementation: There are already exist some stealing restrictions; customize it a bit more.

---

All this three steps wouldn't change too much current IDDC balance so its no really needed to create new mode and divide TomeNET community to different corners; also no need to reset ladder/characters. IDDC just would become more fun, but would stay as challenging as always.

Please add your thoughts :)
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tangar
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Re: [suggestion] IDDC reform: 3 steps

Postby tangar » Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:04 am

Some dialogs:

tokariew wrote:this "fair" trade is big no for parties :D what if warrior "mule" pick up items which are good for another player in parties, and they can't give away item because they don't have enough money?


its totally ok for parties, making party gameplay much more interesting, with obligatory $ exchange for items. Get to 'dungeon town', trade anything with anyone. Or even find 'player store' in dungeon and trade there. Totally fair and legit.

tokariew wrote:3. What with runies and adventures, they can train stealing too? Aren't player sitting in town to buy equip with discounts? How blocking stealing prevent staying in town to buy on discount? It's actually make longer to wait probably, because party stealer can't acquire items for party… and you sit and wait to buy good stuff for whole party on discount…


Its not blocking, but making its not possible to sell stolen items to other players. And if there would be possibility to steal too much different items (not restrict to #5 shop) - it would make 'stealing-able' chars too powerful (much better equipment) in compare to other classes who can't steal and can't buy stolen good. Stealing has to be fun, without much grind and possibilities to cheeze over other classes. Items obtaining has to be ~equal to all classes.

tokariew wrote:I'm not sure if its possible to eliminate cheezing without hurting party playing, and party playing is the probably the most "funny" thing to do in tomenet…


This 3 steps would make cheezing with items/gold _not possible_ at all, but still it would pretty easy to trade items. Yes, there wouldn't be cheezy way to get free item from a friend if you didn't give anything in return. Wanna got free items, cheeze and pew-pew everything? Don't play Ironman, there is NE and EL with a lot of 'items freedom' :) IDDC has to be fair.

----

Also I'm very glad to say that Pondos said that this ideas are "very good" :)
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Re: [suggestion] IDDC reform: 3 steps

Postby tangar » Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:04 am

tokariew wrote:you find a great ego item before first town, and other players in party don't have enough money to "buy" it from you (they are terrible at collecting money or just they don't have enough str to cary a lot of precious items, so they don't have even good stuff to sell to acquire more gold), in your idea i can't transfer gold to party member, so he/she is not able to 'buy' this item from you unless collect enough money…

i'm not sure if this idea are trade friendly, i see couple situation, when i will not be able to trade within party (one char in party, with all party gold to buy items for whole party, because it is best looking char, big no no in your proposition :p)


thank the RN goddess that transfering other way is not cheezing :twisted:


Yes, and its fair. Do not have gold to buy item for 'NPC price' - sell something, get gold and buy item. Fair and square :) And 'pre-first-town' isn't so critical, its quite easy to get to first town even for quite new players without much trading.

Parties in IDDC quite good balanced VS solo gameplay - party have pretty good exp bonus (its higher than outside of IDDC), but less loot. In any case 'dungeon towns' would be always most popular places for trading, so possibility to trade via 'player shops' would be quite sufficiently for comforting playing with party or without.
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Re: [suggestion] IDDC reform: 3 steps

Postby tangar » Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:04 am

And my final word:

there is already anti-cheeze for not allowing trading in first 5 floors. So devs tried to prevent cheezing. And its right. Now its time to make everything really _clean_ and _fair_

Why IDDC called IDDC?

IronMan - it has to be hard, without right on mistake. At the same time it has to be equal for everyone; main thing has to be your game skill, you experience and knowledge; not just the time which you spend in shops.

Deep Dive - It has to be diving. Deep - with minimal time for cheezing something somewhere. Dive! Not to sit in city for some days. Of course you could do - but its _not right_ to get advantages for time which you spend in shops.

Challenge - it whas to be competition. Fair. So everyone would have equal options and possibilites to get into ladder.

There is no way to ignore cheezing, especially if there is a competition. And we got it http://www.tomenet.eu/legends-iddc.php . You don't cheeze - you have little chances to compete with people who do. Example:
I've just gave ~50k from one char to another @ -1000 town. I could repeat it more times; do it in 2k also. Cover all resistances. Its easy to do. And its boring. It makes me stop playing IDDC - I don't have desire to grind to get certain advantages. Its like using cheats in the game - game become boring. But IDDC design has such possibilities in mechanics right now. If there is a ladder and competition - people would use 'holes' in game design. It has to be fixed. Again: there is already anti-cheeze for not allowing trading in first 5 floors. So devs started this anti-cheezing trend long time ago. With this 3 steps it could be almost completely finished and without too much efforts ('o' function, 'player stores', 'stealing restrictions' - already implemented.. need to customize it).

Again, there is most obvious cheezing 'hole'; an algorythm:

1) create "A" character (for example, batty with stealing), go till -1000. It would be your "bank" character.
2) create "B" second IDDC character (batty rogue again - cause of speed bonus) and go like a hurricane to -1000
3) take all stuff from "B" to "A". Your bank character would get ~20-25k gold, useful items and equipment (some arts&egos could cost _a lot_, so its much more then just 25k)
4) delete "B" character and go paragraph 2
5) when you get enough gold for top equip - create your "main" char and play. Do it till you get to -2000 & repeat there.

Its ok to have cheezing in 'non-IDDC' gameplay. But in IDDC it has to be RESTRICTED. IronMan. Deep Dive. Challenge.

So I still trust in initial 3 steps (please check 1st message in the topic):
1) order anything - so you don't need to sit shops for months to cheeze sales and certain items for months. Right now, IDDC = shopping grind.
2) 'player stores' - so you can't transfer money or items without anything in return, no cheeze in IDDC
3) stealing restrictions. Its forbidden to sell stolen goods at via 'player store'. To make previous 1 and 2 points work well.

Also I like Pondos idea:
allow trading freely only with those players wich did enter in a same party.

But I'll add to it - allow it only for 'Iron Team'-type parties

It would make game IDDC more dynamic and fair - all players would be equal, no matter how hours you stayed in the shop :) Only you _playing_ skill (and of course luck ;) ) would matter.

p.s.
I hope its undestandable despite of my bad English that this '3 steps' would make gameplay _harder_, not easier. People wouldn't be able to buy items on 'sales' or cheeze with alts. They have to fight to get items, not to sit in towns. 1 hour in the dungeon is equal to week sitting in shop, but shops are safe. I don't understand why some people protect current IDDC gameplay holes so vigorously... Are you fans of sitting shops for months? Damm you could do it anyway, stay in town as much as you want, even with this'3 steps'. You wouldn't get any advantages from it though... And its right. Wanna make character more powerful - go and fight. Town sitting has to do nothing to your character power _in IDDC_. IronMan. Deep Dive. Challenge. its not Grindfest Shopping Cheezing Townsitting.
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Re: [suggestion] IDDC reform: 3 steps

Postby tangar » Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:34 pm

Discussion continues:

Pondos wrote:For my experience, having not enough cash when arriving on 1k or 2k is hardly a problem. Those anti-cheeze options for that maybe not useful at all.

Since all the right eq&misc wont save from bad play. If not having all resses or certain one, better skip those foes and continue diving.

But IF having enough cash, make egos appear more often, since almost everybody will wait certain items to appear, and thats just waiting and waiting. End results will be same.



1) Gold matters. You could buy best items and play not only 'chaos draconian' race for melee char (which is most popular IDDC choise for resistances), but any race - you got enough gold to buy items to cover all resistances...
2) You could not only cheeze to get gold to buy egos from shops, but also cheeze powerful egos and even arts from drop_great monsters at pre-2000 lvls EZPZ - to move them to from one to another character.

Its pretty obvious that your equipment - its second (or third - after luck) factor which matters (playing skill -> luck/bad-luck -> equipment). If you would perform some cheezing (like giving items from 10 characters @ 3k town to your main) - I'm pretty sure that there would be quite different results in http://www.tomenet.eu/legends-iddc.php
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Re: [suggestion] IDDC reform: 3 steps

Postby tangar » Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:35 pm

Pondos wrote:You are just wrong because death is always about bad play. I can say this straight to you Tangar because you dont have experience enough yet. Experience is most of that how to avoid risky situations, not just go steaming all in with destroyng all misc quickly. I hope you could understand this.


No offence, but when people has nothing to say about facts, they turn to personality, very typical.

I pretty aware about my gaming experience, thank you :) I'm not experienced player compare to a lot of other TomeNET players. I play TomeNET only 2 years and know decently (but far away from perfect) only low-mid (pre-angband <3k) gameplay. Also wanna note that I play only NE characters and play solo, so its not totally EZPZ gameplay. Anyway, it doesn't matter to IDDC balance; all what I'm writing about - its just pure logic...

So could you please just honestly answer this simple questions, to provide some facts about this topics:

I) are you disagree that the main factors which matters when you have to die or survive is:

1) gaming skill. main factor.
2) your equipment. very major factor.
3) your personal luck/bad-luck (I put it at third place cause equipment matters more actually). middle factor (with skill and equipment you could get out of very tight spots)
4) everything else...

II) Is influencing at 2nd (very major factor) would increase you chances to survive bad situations?

III) if equipment doesn't matter to you, why you are waiting for +speed boots in shop for a one month? :mrgreen:

IV) what do you think - would you be able to beat current records (http://www.tomenet.eu/legends-iddc.php) if you would have, for example, 10x more resources (gold, egos & arts from drop) which is very possible to get from cheezing from one char to another?
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